In your experience do you need to increase the powder measure
any when you do this?
Thanks , KJS
Well, I do both...and shoot both .38 special AND .357 rounds in my guns and clean them well after every use. But, sure, it would be better to use .357 cases in a .357 gun than the shorter special cases, and just load them down to .38 special velocities. That would be absolutely ideal. It's just that I buy re-loads often in .38 special and have so much brass, I have to use it. Your experience with erosion is very interesting and I may want to look into that situation further. Thanks for the comments and bringing it to my attention.
I would NOT change the load just for case size change. The dynamics
of burning rates of modern powders is certainly affected by case
volumn, and it would change a "little" bit, but not enough for you
to likely tell the difference. But, hey....try it. Put the exact
same load and bullet in both .38 and .357 cases (say about 25 rounds)
and shoot them interchangeably....and see if YOU can tell the difference.
I don't think, short of measuring it with a chronograph, you will see
enough difference to matter very much. The larger case should have a
"hair" slower burning rate than the smaller case. Regards, MDS
Allen: I appreciate all input about my reloading pages. I understand all these factors about bbl length, etc. contribute to ACTUAL velocity, and all I did was put the powder mfgs. loads there. I am currently adding loads for other calibers. I have the .300 Win. Mag. on the list. I am adding other powders from other companies even today. The first addition will be a "Powder Discussion Page" listing 5 manufacturers, their complete line and the powders I have experience with and in some cases will just list what is in the makers reloading manual directly (and will indicate such).
With most of the loads and bullets I have listed, they are seated to the crimp ring or seated to the usual depth of similar commercial ammo. With the powders involved, seating depth will not be very much of a factor. I really don't want to get too technical for the novice reloader which is what my pages are "aimed" at reaching. I know that there are full BOOKS written on some of these specific subjects, and I certainly don't want to open up a can of worms.
Glad you had a chance to check out the pages. did you look at the bottom section on tools, steps, etc? Regards, M.D.
Pat P.S. My favorite recipe for the .22-250 is 35.5 grains of AA2520 with Federal 210 primers and any 55 grain bullet for about 3650 fps.
Robert: Thanks very much for that input on the .45 ACP. That is one of my favorite calibers and I just bought another .45 today. It was obtained by my gun shop from WalMart when they went out of the pistol business. It's a Spanish .45 auto, but was brand new and just $190. Looking forward to trying out some different loads on this one after the 5 day waiting period. What brand is W231 ? Also, I note you are using a power factor calculation. I have seen these before, but not sure of the significance...what is a good range, bad range, etc?
That might be an interesting addition to my shooting site web pages and
I welcome all comments and input like yours. Thanks again. By the
way, where are you located? Regards, M.D.
[Note: I have since obtained some Winchester 231 and use it in pistol loads. ]
W231 is Winchester 231. It is a ball powder. The power factor refers to the
bullet weight X velocity divided by 100.
weigth x velocity ----------------- 100To shoot IPSC the bullet power factor must exceed 125. For power factors that are at least 125 but less than 175, the shooter is consisdered MINOR. Power factors that are at 175 or above arc considered MAJOR. The difference is that in scoring the targets, the shots outside the A-zone count one point less for minor. Scoring of an IPSC target is as follows:
Major Minor A 5 5 B 4 3 C 4 3 D 3 2The idea behind this is the principal upon which the competition of IPSC shooting founded, DVC. DVC is latin for Accuracy, Power, Speed. The accuracy comes with the goal of hitting the A-zone. Power comes from giving more points for B,C, and D hits due to the power of the gun and the greater difficulty of keeping the shots on target with a higher recoil gun. The speed comes into play once all the points for shots are added. The points are totaled and then divided by the time. This gives a hit factor which is actually how the shooters are scored. The higher hit factors win.
I have been shooting IPSC for a couple of years now and just recently moved
from a minor gun (9mm - 147 gr bullet at 860fps - power factor 126.4) to the
and tested by many shooters including the #3 ranked shooter in the world
(who happens to have shot at our club once last year).
I belong to the Central Ozark Practical Shooters, in Central Missouri. Our
range is located west of Rolla Missouri, in the eastern part of Phelps
County. I am the treasures of the club. We host IPSC matches the first
Sunday of each month. Matches are open to any one who is interested in
shooting. If you are intersted in IPSC shooting, there is a page
dedicated to IPCS shooting in the US called the USPSA page. USPSA (United
States Practical Shooting Association) is the US organization governing the
sport. Their page is:
In it you will find inforamtion about the sport including rules, scoring,
targets, where clubs are located, etc...
Hope this helps.
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 16:15:26 PST
From: Russ Porter
If you are going to have a reloading page don't neglect the best powders.
Hodgdons H110 and Winchester 296 are the powders of choice for
cartridges such as the 357 mag and the 44 mag. Highest velocity with
lest pressure, easy to throw from a powder measure.
I do include some of the Hodgdon and Winchester powders, but I can't use all of them...if I put every flavor of every brand on my reload pages, it would fill several books...so I just have to pick a couple of the most versatile, that an average reloader might have in their cupboard. I always try to pick powders that are used for the most calibers, rather than caliber-specific flavors. I am sure you are right about these two below, and I will keep them in mind when I update the powder pages. I will also include your comments in my soon-to-be discussion pages of Relaoding FAQ's. Regards and thanks for the comments. MDS
I am new to the net and was pleased to find your page. Keep up the good
work. Do you have any data on using the 45 Colt in the Winchester lever
action Trapper ? This would be interesting to Cowboy Action shooters.
Of course you can use any loads for the .45 Colt in the Winchester rifle. As far as loads specifically for it, I have never seen any. I have a .357 Marlin rifle that I shoot my pistol rounds in, and I just always use the loads for the .357 that are shown. I suppose the rifle could support a slightly heavier load, but it might get in a pistol by mistake and be bad news.
And I guess the rifle could certainly use slower burning powder with that long barrel, but then that would not work in a 5" pistol barrel well at all.
So, better just stick to the published
loads for the handgun. There are sites for Cowboy Action shooting on
my links page and you would enjoy visiting. Regards, MDS
There will be a lot of uninitated in the firearm sports that will see
your work. It is done clearly, accurately and with good taste. And I
might add, enough detailed information that kept me reading on. Thanks.
Mike: Thanks for the nice comments on the firearms reloading site I have been working on. I still have a lot more things I plan to do with it, and the pages keep growing. Yes, I am trying to add enough detail to be interesting, generally for the new reloaders, without making a book out of the thing. I plan to add more resource info, like manufacturers, outlets for mail order, and places to go for more information, besides the web. Thanks again. Regards, M.D.
If you are collecting loads for the .40 S&W, I've just finished chronoing some loads
using Vitavuori N350. 6.0gr with a 180gr FMJ runs 950fps, 6.0gr under a 200gr JHP
also runs 950fps [book maximum]. 6.4gr under the 180gr FMJ runs about 1000fps. Note
that these loads are out of a 5" barreled STI 2011. Also, the OAL for these loads
was 1.210" because longer loads work better in my STI.
Factory Winchester 180gr ball (white box) runs about 1000fps out of a 5" barrel.
[I said:] Roy, thank you very much for the info...Yes, I am planning on adding info such as you have submitted. Thanks very much for the info. I need to get a chrono myself, what kind did you use? I will include your info next time I update the page. You are one of the first I have seen using Vitavuori powders. Thanks, MDS
This was using a Chrony of some sort at a local IPSC match. I've just discovered that our club has an Oehler for use that I'll have to start playing with. I like the Vitavuori powders because they are really clean. Unfortunately they are also kinda expensive. N350 is one of the cleanest powders I've met, with the possible exception of H110 at high pressures. IPSC types around here are keen on VV powder for that reason.
You might want to give Win 296 - 23gr with a hard cast (8% antimony)SWC
and WLP primers. For those of us around here it has proven extremely
accurate in everything from Contenders to Dan Wessons.
Thanks Janie, I appreciate all input and suggestions. I have a lot of different powders, but no 296. But I will check it out in the winchester book and perhaps add it to the 44 mag loads in my listings. Thanks again for the info. Any idea about the FPS on that load? [later after checking in the book]
Winchester shows a load with 296 and a 240 gr. cast bullet of 25 grains with a velocity of 1560 FPS. So it looks like yours is just a bit shy of the max, but still should provide plenty of power. It only takes half as much of 231 to get the .44 mag going, and that would reload twice as many rounds, if that's any factor. I can see from the Winchester Book that 296 is a good .44 magnum load and needs magnum primers.
Thanks again, good shootin' to ya'
Tried two different powders (AA2520 and AA2460) in Rem 700 .223 with better results than before. The gun seems to shoot 2460 pretty well. Three five shot groups- .79", 1.04", and 1.0". Two of these were 3/2 groups and one was a 4/1, although they were significantly smaller than previous groups obtained. Talked to several people over the weekend who are familiar with sporter weight 700 barrells and they all suggested free floating and bedding, so, I am on to that project now. Any tips on glass bedding techniques or places to find same ? Also adjusted the trigger last night to remove creep and set weight of pull to about 2-3 lbs. I normally don't like working with more than one variable at a time, but the trigger needed work badly and I did have a hunch that bedding could well be the majority of this rifles problem. We'll see. Talk to you later.
You certainly seem to be on the right track. I am NOT a bedding expert by any means...it is out of my realm of experience. I do know that every factor can help/hurt grouping...but using sandbags for a bench rest and really having the rifle solid before squeezing off each shot, has always taught me a lot as I tried to get better groups. Trigger pull is always an important factor. Keep up the interesting work. By the way, in this Month's issue of AMERICAN RIFLEMAN (April 1996) page 28 is an article on bedding called, "Free Float or Not" that you will want to read if you have not already. It was quite interesting. Regards, MDS
I am looking for good light-weight (110-130 gr) varmint loads for the '06. In particular, I want to use the 125gn Speer TNT.
Fellow shooter: (don't know your name)....
Here is the info right off my 30-06 page for the 125 grain....
125 grain JSP (Sierra Spitzer Point) IMR 4895 53.0 gr. 3,176 FPS H4895 53.0 gr. 3,176 Reloader 7 42.0 gr. 2,915 Reloader 15 56.8 gr. 3,275 2400 30.0 gr. 2,575 H380 56.0 gr. 3,151 A2230 53.3 gr. 3,172 A2460 53.5 gr. 3,125 748 51.0 gr. 3,060 760 57.8 gr. 3,125and I am sure you can use the same data for the 125 gr. Speer TNT. These are near maximum loads. Do not exceed the amounts unless you do it very carefully...I don't suggest you do it at all. If you have a fairly long barrel, use a slower burning powder. You can tell from the amount...it generally takes more of a slower powder...so the 4895 or the 760 or the H380 would all be good choices. For shorter barrels, use the faster powder. Since most of these provide speeds above 3,100 FPS of muzzle velocity, I think they would all be very suitable. Regards, MDS
Dear M. D. Smith,
I'm intrigued by your load recommendation of 2400, 15.2 gr., 1,535fps
for 357 mag.
Is this chronographed? I understand that different guns will produce different velocities from the same components and if you say you've gotten this I'll believe it.
About 5 years now I've been reloading 357 through my Marlin 1894 for PA deer
and although I've accounted for 3 with as many shots, I'm still looking for
the optimum and maximum load for my *rifle only*. All the manuals I've seen
give identical loads for rifle and pistol and while I understand their
liability obligations, I can't but suspect that a slower powder could take
advantage of the additional 12 inches of barrel to deliver extra performance
for *rifle only*. But I know the absence of a cylinder gap in the rifle
raises the pressure curve. Been using 15.7 gr of 2400 behind 158 gr JHP or
JSP (Speer Loading Manual No. 10 1979 lists 15.9gr if 2400 behind 158gr
jhp/jsp for 1335fps in a pistol premumably a 6" bbl--GUNS mag Mar 1992 p 59
lists a max of 16gr 2400 behind a 158gr Lyman #358156 lead gas check for
1467fps out of a Blackhawk 4 5/8" and calls it the original powder charge
for the 357 in 1935) but I'm having occasional case head separations without
other signs of overpressure (cratering, pierced primers, gas leaks,etc). I
understand this is a problem with rear locking bolts such as the Marlin
since they can allow too much give at firing--case wall expands and holds to
chamber but head travels back against bolt allowing separation. I've heard
that no more than one reloading of brass is suggested for 357 mag rifle.
My questions for you, if you will, would be for the maximum velocity loads
for 140 and 158 gr bullets specifically for the rifle and what will be the
muzzle FPS from an 18 inch barrel? Do you know of chronograph results for
these loads? I believe that the 140 gr bullet may shade the 158 gr in energy
but it seems to be significantly less accurate from my gun.
Michael J. Kibelbek
Mr. Kibelbek: Glad to hear from you. The load of 2400 was right out of the Alliant powder manual and the velocity was theirs too, for a pistol barrel I am sure. You are certainly correct that a slower burning powder in the the Alliant, Hodgdon or Accurate powder manuals (free at local gunshops) and find the slower burning powder (and usually more grains of weight for a given load) and you should have a better mix for a rifle. I think you have nailed the case problem with the rifle, and perhaps a slower powder can help that. Plus, you may want to change suppliers of your brass. All brass is not exactly the same. I have a Marlin rifle just like yours and it was used by my son for deer hunting some years ago. I have not shot it much and we often used .38 special loads in it for training him to shoot accurately. When we did use .357, it was normal loads and we never had any case damage that I could tell, but it was a long while back and I can't remember the loads, but it probably was 2400, but also was likely not more than 14 gr. as I don't like heavy loads in the pistol rounds.
I am assuming a 158 gr. JHP or similar and here are those loads from my pages:
Bullseye 6.8 gr. 1,250 FPS Unique 7.8 gr. 1,280 2400 15.2 gr. 1,535 Universal 7.5 gr. 1,299 HP38 5.4 gr. 1,020 HS6 9.0 gr. 1,240 No. 2 6.9 gr. 1,088 No. 5 8.6 gr. 1,080 231 6.9 gr. 1,260I would question Alliant's 1,535 speed too! I like Unique and have never had a problem with this faster burning powder compared to 2400. So, I would think 2400 should be slow enuff for the magnum loads. Check out powders for the .44 mag (slow burning) and it might give you some more ideas. Best regards, MDS ======================original==================================================